backwards compatibility

[DaN20]

Well, right now we honestly don't know how big Next-Gen games will be. But i'm betting that Sony is one step ahead of Microsoft by adopting Blu-Ray as there medium. I mean, let's just say that since both systems require some sort of High Definition (Sony 1080p standard with Microsoft 720p) output, that space is gonna get eaten up fast for the 360, especially if it's a huge game. One thing that hasn't really been discussed and something I am very curious about, what exactly do the game developers think of this move by Microsoft? Will it be enough space? Did Microsoft ever consider another media type? Just my thought's about it.


---Dan

 

[CoHPhasor]

Well, right now we honestly don't know how big Next-Gen games will be. But i'm betting that Sony is one step ahead of Microsoft by adopting Blu-Ray as there medium. I mean, let's just say that since both systems require some sort of High Definition (Sony 1080p standard with Microsoft 720p) output, that space is gonna get eaten up fast for the 360, especially if it's a huge game. One thing that hasn't really been discussed and something I am very curious about, what exactly do the game developers think of this move by Microsoft? Will it be enough space? Did Microsoft ever consider another media type? Just my thought's about it.


---Dan

EXACTLY my thought on it.

It's nice to be neutral, to be Switzerland, but ain't that Nintendo's job??

 

[hairybelly]

I thought this thread was about "Backwards Compatibility" not drive formats.

Anyhoo regarding backwards compatibility, I don't think its going to be such a big deal for the majority of people who have modded their Xboxes, who wants to bin their Xbox if they have spent so much time and money into making it personal to them?

Just keep your Xbox and use that to play your Xbox 1 games.

I know plenty of people who have PS2's but never bother to play PS1 games on them.

And as to the drive formats issue, I have read an interview with Ballmer and Bach which was a little ambiguous, but it seems to suggest they might be considering a switch to one of the newer formats but are playing a wait and see game.

From what they have said it looks like they will make a different configuration of the Xbox, which I think is a bad idea, they need to get it right first time not come out with different specs or god forbid addons(remember the Megadrive/Genessis mutiple addons farce).

Here is the link:

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000597043723/

Like I said it's a bit ambiguous so I might have got the wrong end of the stick.

 

[linuxn00b2004]

I read the same article earlier... but I suspect M$ is simply covering their behinds. They put out a LOT of vaporware for Windows, and I bet this is the exact same thing. I could be surprised, but I bet it's all vaporware. I think they're saying it somply to be scary. I bet if they were really to change plans, it would move the release date back a few months, and they are petrified that Sony will beat them.

(For those of you who don't know what it is, it when a company hears about another company putting out a feature that they do not have, so they claim they are going to make that software or feature, but never quite get around to it... in Microsoft's case, they have killed many, many companies with vaporware... and it makes me FURIOUS. That's one of the many reasons I'm getting the PS3 and not using Windows.)

- Greg

 

[CrashMan82]

The hurttle was the GPU. Nvidia didn't want to show all it's cards to ATi so ATi had to figure out how to get it done on their own.

That's why even sticking to the API, some things just may not behave the same as they did on X1.

And therfore... MS's cover your ass statement saying 'most popular titles'

 

[mmicrosysm]

Do not under estimate M$ as they can still add Blu-Ray support to there Xbox360 at any time. Also I do not see Sony pushing the Blu-Ray Disc’s on initial release as releasing the first titles on DVD5/DVD9 will keep game prices reasonable and affordable to the public. As the system progresses and Blu-Ray disc's price fall the future titles will undoubtedly be released on that format. Those are my thoughts on this subject.



As for Backwards compatibility I agree with CrashMan82 that M$ is covering there ass and not saying that the Xbox360 will be 100% backwards compatible with the all Xbox titles.

 

[l0thar]

Finally, the truth about backwards compatibility comes out! Check out this article on GamesIndustry.biz (gotta love Xbox-Scene):

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=8996

I'm not sure how they're going to handle distribution on these recompiled games, but I don't think the majority of consumers are going to be keen on shelling out even more money for Xbox1 games just so they can play them on the 360. That might explain the rumors of HALO 2.5 being a possible launch title. Good ol' M$, just recompile... maybe add a little extra content... and BAM!- new release candidate!

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]

Well my friend I believe it was Panasonic that pushed VHS into what it is today because pple like the idea of "backing things up" as we already know.

Panasonic was one of many companies ([/font]Hitachi, Mitsubishi[font=verdana, arial, helvetica] and RCA to name a few) who jumped onto the VHS bandwagon after it was introduced by JVC back in the late 70's. If anyone is interested at all in the fall of Betamax here is a great article that originally appeared in a 1988 issue of Videomax magazine. I used Betamax just as an example to illustrate the potential hazards of pushing a format that isn't released or established yet. The ironic thing is that this article can also be seen as an illustration of the shortsightedness of M$ as it points out that one of the contributing factors to the fall of Betamax was that VHS tapes had more storage capability than their Betamax counterparts.
[/font]

 

[CoHPhasor]

Finally, the truth about backwards compatibility comes out! Check out this article on GamesIndustry.biz (gotta love Xbox-Scene):

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=8996

I'm not sure how they're going to handle distribution on these recompiled games, but I don't think the majority of consumers are going to be keen on shelling out even more money for Xbox1 games just so they can play them on the 360. That might explain the rumors of HALO 2.5 being a possible launch title. Good ol' M$, just recompile... maybe add a little extra content... and BAM!- new release candidate!

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]

Panasonic was one of many companies ([/font]Hitachi, Mitsubishi[font=verdana, arial, helvetica] and RCA to name a few) who jumped onto the VHS bandwagon after it was introduced by JVC back in the late 70's. If anyone is interested at all in the fall of Betamax here is a great article that originally appeared in a 1988 issue of Videomax magazine. I used Betamax just as an example to illustrate the potential hazards of pushing a format that isn't released or established yet. The ironic thing is that this article can also be seen as an illustration of the shortsightedness of M$ as it points out that one of the contributing factors to the fall of Betamax was that VHS tapes had more storage capability than their Betamax counterparts.
[/font]

Well I of course realize that Panasonic was not the creator, nor the sole proprietor of VHS, but they certainly were the brand that broke the cael's back. NOt the most expensive, but good, so it was earier for ppl to say they were getting a Panasonic.
I'm glad that you saw what I was hoping to point out about Beta vs VHS, M$ is stepping into a fully loaded uppercut!
(Add to that the backwards Compatability fiasco, an I can smell a mod an a ripped XDK compiler comin' down the pipe!)

 

[wolrahnaes]

Here's one for the Software guru's:

How do they make only some of the older games work on the new system? Have they been planning this for some time, and including in their game development over the past year(s) a feature that does or doesn't allow it play on the 360 console? And if that were the case, would the X360 chip or X4 chip or whatever it gets called...will it be able to hack it and make all games playable?

The 360 would really drop down a notch if it's not fully backward-compatible. You can't just choose to emulate which games sold better, everyone has different tastes in games and it would piss off a lot of people.

Responding to both of the above quotes...

They're not choosing which games will work, they're choosing which ones to focus their efforts on emulating properly. Surely you've played an emulator and had something seem not quite right. That is because certain games access the hardware in strange ways which makes emulation harder. Look at how long it took to get proper SuperFX support in SNES emulators. Now realize that the Xbox is exponentially more complex than a SNES. It's easy to get an emulator to play 90% of games 90% correctly, but MS will not officially support the games running in emulation mode until they are running 100%. Take a look at the progress on cxbx. Now look at emulators for older systems which have been in development for years. Some NES games are still not emulated properly. Do you get the idea of how hard emulation is now? PS2 had a PS1 on a chip built right in rather than emulating. MS doesn't have that option here.

(Think about a PC, when I buy a PC I make SURE the video card has it's OWN RAM, why slow down the CPU?)

The CPU's RAM is the slow part in a PC. Most modern CPUs are feeding off DDR RAM at an effective clock of 400MHz. Compare that to a top-end graphics card which has GDDR3 running at over a gigahertz in some cases.

Anyways, shared RAM isn't a bad thing. It just has a bad name because most shared RAM implementations involve "Intel Extreme" whatever junk. What it actually means is flexibility, since the X360 can give the GPU more memory if it needs to deal with heavy texturing or give the CPU more if there's serious AI. The PS3 is stuck with an even split of 256/256.

I mean, let's just say that since both systems require some sort of High Definition (Sony 1080p standard with Microsoft 720p) output, that space is gonna get eaten up fast for the 360, especially if it's a huge game.

1. PS3 will be 1080p capable. not a requirement for games to use that ability. Xbox is 1080i capable, but how many games do you see using that?
2. HD only takes up more disc space for prerendered FMV. Why would you want prerendered when you have all that graphical prowess available? The textures and models take up the same disc space regardless of if the scene is being rendered at 640x480 or 1920x1080.

 

[DaN20]

Unless i'm reading it wrong, it says 1080p will be the standard for all games. Here is the article from IGN.com:

E3 2005: PS3 to Output 1080p Standard
An HD revolution.
by Ivan Sulic

May 16, 2005 - Among one hundred billion other bits of technical information, we recently learned that the PlayStation 3 will be capable of outputting a 1080 progressive scan image.

Very few pieces of media currently support 1080 progressive scan display. For reference, Apple recently announced that it would release new movie trailers in 1080p format, provided gamers used their new Quicktime application. Additionally, a couple of movies (namely Terminator 2) support 1080p.

While a lot of televisions do not currently support the ultra high-end format, it's great to see Sony looking way into the future for its next system.

UPDATE - 6:22PM - We have just been updated by our away team at the SCEA conference that not only will 1080p be supported by the system, but that this is considered the standard resolution for the system. Every game for the system will be in incredible, indelible, indubitable HD.

Nobody at IGN even owns a TV that can do 1080p, but that's the system's goal - to give HDTV a killer app piece of hardware that people will no longer be able to live without. Get your wallet ready...


---Dan

 

[l0thar]

They're not choosing which games will work, they're choosing which ones to focus their efforts on emulating properly.

Well.... technically they are choosing which games will work since it looks like they aren't creating an emulator at all, but are actually completely recompiling the games and releasing them for the 360 (as mentioned in this article originally posted above). I agree that creating an emulator for the Xbox would be a herculean task and most likely impossible... and it appears that M$ agrees as well!

 

[CoHPhasor]

Stay connected to xbox-scene, an article by one of the XB ppl is saying that is a falsity, and it WILL be emulated. ;-)

 

[wolrahnaes]

Well.... technically they are choosing which games will work since it looks like they aren't creating an emulator at all, but are actually completely recompiling the games and releasing them for the 360 (as mentioned in this article originally posted above). I agree that creating an emulator for the Xbox would be a herculean task and most likely impossible... and it appears that M$ agrees as well!

Straight from the Xbox Live Director of Programming:
http://www.majornelson.com/2005/05/19/no-you-do-not-need-to-recompile-your-xbox-games/
emulation, not recompilation.

 

[l0thar]

Straight from the Xbox Live Director of Programming:
http://www.majornelson.com/2005/05/19/no-you-do-not-need-to-recompile-your-xbox-games/
emulation, not recompilation.

Finally, the truth about backwards compatibility comes out! Boy do I feel sheepish . The great thing about the internet is that it's easy to find information... the bad part about the internet is that it's even easier to find mis-information (thought I could trust it since I found it on Xbox-Scene).

Anyway, check out the Team Xbox interview with the J-man himself about the 360:
http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1159/Exclusive-J-Allard-Video-Interview/p1/
It's a ten minute interview that covers a lot of interesting ground that has been discussed in this thread. Here's some highlights:

Sony Vs. Microsoft - 1:42 (the J-man is motivated by desperate housewives! )
HD Media debate - 4:47 (why they didn't go with Blu-Ray or HD DVD)
Backwards compatibility - 6:35 (apparently the J-man has a Playstation 2... then again, if I had that much money I'd have three!).

 

[linuxn00b2004]

I read that article... but I do not believe it in it's entirety. If Microsoft is doing the benchmark tests, then of course Microsoft is going to come out on top. I mean, they still pretend that Linux is more unreliable, less efficient, and buggier then Windows... riiiiiight. So, I'm not going to trust it. I know that is false from my own experience.

I saw a good comment on one of the articles that said, "I'm going to wait for a benchmark test by a third party." (Good call, but regardless, I am purchasing the PS3.) A true benchmark with both products is needed before they can be truely judged. All the opinions I have posted above I am basing on theoretical performace, and I will still stand by what I have said. But, regardless, I think the PS3 is going to come out on top.

- Greg

 

[demolisher316]

I also think it truly is a mistake to not have invested into another disc technology than DVD. PS3 is going Blu-Ray, (54GB in dual layer discs) and we have no idea on Nintendo yet, but there's a HUGE difference in the amount of content you can fit into 54GB than simply 10GB. Think about it, you can have movie games that HAVE the movie on them, OR you can have a "special edition" set that's all on one disc! (All 4 GTAs for example.)

The Reason why Xbox didnt go with a different disc technology is because they didnt need to. Before Mircrosoft made the 360, they sat down with many game publishers, and asked what they wanted in the next system... They said they want "throughput" which means a faster way to load the data on the disc. Capacity isnt an issue with them... DVD9 is plenty for the next generation gaming. If Microsoft were to go with Blu-Ray, there would be longer load times, considering Blu-ray technology is still a little rough, since the most speed they can read at is 1X-2X speed. Unlike with the Xbox 360 drive that is 12X. Also, blu-ray is rare, and fairly new... It would be a large cost to make the PS3. Xbox 360 will be cheaper when it hits stores. So thats why Microsoft didnt need to include the Blu-ray drive

Watch the J Allard interview explaining why they didnt go Blu-Ray
http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1159/Exclusive-J-Allard-Video-Interview/p1/

 

[CoHPhasor]

The Reason why Xbox didnt go with a different disc technology is because they didnt need to. Before Mircrosoft made the 360, they sat down with many game publishers, and asked what they wanted in the next system... They said they want "throughput" which means a faster way to load the data on the disc. Capacity isnt an issue with them... DVD9 is plenty for the next generation gaming. If Microsoft were to go with Blu-Ray, there would be longer load times, considering Blu-ray technology is still a little rough, since the most speed they can read at is 1X-2X speed. Unlike with the Xbox 360 drive that is 12X. Also, blu-ray is rare, and fairly new... It would be a large cost to make the PS3. Xbox 360 will be cheaper when it hits stores. So thats why Microsoft didnt need to include the Blu-ray drive

Watch the J Allard interview explaining why they didnt go Blu-Ray
http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1159/Exclusive-J-Allard-Video-Interview/p1/

So when PS2 first hit, the industry didn't NEED the 5GB capacity, but instead were fine with 650MB like with Dreamcast ehh? Let us not forget that this is hardware that is supposed to be good for the next FIVE years. (Or 6 in PS's book, or maybe 4 again in M$'s book)

Facts are facts, and as soon as 3rd party devs get ahold of the power, and realize the full potential they could SERIOUSLY want the extra room, or hell, maybe that doesn't even matter at all.
I think that if BR comes along and starts puttin nice flix, and I get an HD TV (plans r in the works) then I'm gonna be geeked to have a player already and have to spend NO $ for it!
(I know the initial cost will be higher, but will I care when I wait for XB and PS to compete an drop prices? HEX no!)

 

[cool3do]

So when PS2 first hit, the industry didn't NEED the 5GB capacity, but instead were fine with 650MB like with Dreamcast ehh? Let us not forget that this is hardware that is supposed to be good for the next FIVE years. (Or 6 in PS's book, or maybe 4 again in M$'s book)

Facts are facts, and as soon as 3rd party devs get ahold of the power, and realize the full potential they could SERIOUSLY want the extra room, or hell, maybe that doesn't even matter at all.
I think that if BR comes along and starts puttin nice flix, and I get an HD TV (plans r in the works) then I'm gonna be geeked to have a player already and have to spend NO $ for it!
(I know the initial cost will be higher, but will I care when I wait for XB and PS to compete an drop prices? HEX no!)

If you want to talk about facts, then it might help to get yours straight...

Just a small correction, the Dreamcast was actually 1GB capacity because it used a GD-ROM drive instead of CD-ROM.

Besides that, what makes anyone think that manufacturers will use more capacity than a DVD can offer? Heck, half of the games out there are still only around 3GB, with many even being less than 1.5GB. Even the "big" games are usually just around (or less than) 4GB. And these even include the games that currently support 720p resolution for HD sets. Developers are already spending as much money making some games as some movies cost to make, so I doubt we're going to see them pour even MORE money (and people) and longer development-time anytime soon.

Also, at the time these systems were first being designed (and likely even when they're released), it's a risk to include one of the "new" HD formats. At this point, there is not a leader between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray in the fight for HD standard. Heck, it might end up not being either one of them in their current state that becomes the HD standard.

I mean, honestly, what happens to the PS3 if 2 years from now Blu-Ray is beat out by HD-DVD or another technology as the HD standard format? Would the PS3 become outdated at that point in time? I think the XBOX 360 will be very successful for two reasons.... 1) It looks like it's going to be the first to hit the market, likely months before the PS3 comes out. 2) It will likely have a much lower introduction price than the PS3.

Don't get me wrong though, the PS3 will still be successful just due to the Sony/Playstation name behind it. But I think they'll have their marketing work cut out for them if they want to stay on top of the console market.

 

[jhoff80]

Another problem for the PS3 is that Sony and Toshiba are currently talking about creating one unified HD-DVD/ Blu-Ray standard. For all we know, if this happens, the PS3's Blu-Ray drive might not even be able to play movies.

 

[DaN20]

Another problem for the PS3 is that Sony and Toshiba are currently talking about creating one unified HD-DVD/ Blu-Ray standard. For all we know, if this happens, the PS3's Blu-Ray drive might not even be able to play movies.

Well, the talks have since stopped, but I think they will start up again as TDK just announced they have a new Blu-Ray 100 GB disc. Let's just hope this gets settled soon as to not confuse people about what is going to be the standard...hopefully Blu-Ray.


---Dan